remembering that you're just one conversation away from a huge monumental shift in your life. Automation shouldn't replace a human. It should support them. P2P, it's person to person. You don't sell HighLevel. You sell the outcome of what they can do with HighLevel. And I will fight anybody that tells me otherwise. All we can have is a conversation. And the outcome of that conversation might be a no. The outcome of that conversation might be the best conversation we've ever had. All right, guys, welcome to Remote First podcast series, the first one, first episode. And of course, great to have my friend Chris here. This is the podcast where I'm going to try to get people that who are going to be on stage in Dallas, the summit, October 26 to October 29, to come speak to us, share some of their insights and maybe tell us a little bit of insights. what are they going to be talking about you know kind of behind the scenes what is the homework and that they're working on uh so thanks a lot chris of course taking your time um coming on my podcast i know nobody was coming it's the first one i'm kidding but thank you yeah i just went out and sorry yes i just went out also met um chris in philippines then in england um you know so So I think there's a lot of introduction as far as I have to do for Chris. He's father, of course, of two sports fan, but a big time speaker at HighLevel. He's been on India, Philippines, and now he's going to be in the summit. So it's kind of collecting frequent flyer miles for sure right now. Definitely. Yeah. So you want to give a little quick introduction about what you're doing and how you're associated with HighLevel first of all chris yeah 100 well firstly thank you for having us on uh i massively appreciate being on the first one yeah my my work with HighLevel is almost exclusively surrounding whatsapp uh i met the team about probably 18 months ago now closing in on that and i simply asked them you've got the whatsapp functionality why are you not talking about it more and the response was very clearly it's a us-based company and whatsapp in the us isn't as big as it is everywhere else so it's never really been a focus for the people that live there and then i think when they started broadening out and doing shows in dubai in the united kingdom and then and then elsewhere they realized that it's an incredibly powerful tool and it's the primary communication platform in in most countries outside of outside of the us so a bit of right place at right time thing having the right conversations and it's growing from there so i was uh invited to write the official course for HighLevel for whatsapp back at the start of or middle of 2025 um off the back of the course and and the feedback from the course was asked to speak at level up last year that was my first sort of experience of a HighLevel event and then invited as you mentioned india philippines and then back at level up for the for the second year running in dallas at the end of october awesome yes so you know basically a familiar face now uh authority uh on whatsapp and by the way chris has also done the training or the certificate badge that you have within HighLevel certification he's the one who authored it um the course within ghl certification so if you can say you know a master uh at whatsapp and that is true as soon as whatsapp comes up in us you hear crickets right it is not accepted here we have a lot of users off actually you told me that you know how much percentage here is just using iphones that's why the text message is more prominent here all right so that's and then with all this travel that you're doing and also you know you're a qpr fan first of all thanks a lot for the gift that you sent me so you can see the ones that i've got over my shoulder and it's signed it up on the wall i always have so my my coasters to give you a bit of an idea are old marble um programs there is very very few places in this house and in my father's house as well that you can go and you you will be more than 10 steps away from something related to kpr so just to tell someone you know i know being a sports fan we just throw it out there but we know it is basically a big part of someone's life so how tell us a little bit of you know how did you become being in Ireland a QPR fan first of all and then you know how do you keep it in touch being in Ireland and trying to watch all of these games so I grew up in West London my dad was born a few miles away from Loftus Road the stadium so in the UK when you follow a sports fan it's not a decision it's a lifetime commitment um there is a an old adage that most British sports fans would follow which is you can change your family you can change your wife but you can't change your sports fan uh your sports team so um grew up and and from the age of seven dad took me to my first game when I was five and he said that I didn't have the attention span then took me back when I was seven and then had a season ticket from then on that's back in 97 which means this is my 29th year of having a season ticket um since then what i love about it is is like the community that you get and and you experienced that when we were there bumped into some people that sit behind us who are only friends because they sit behind us and they're in the row behind us at the bar that we met beforehand everybody's talking chatting talking to the people around us and you just you get to enjoy a common interest that even just for 90 minutes pulls people from every single walk of life and I moved over to Spain at the start of 2013 lived there for a number of years and didn't get to as many games albeit watched most of them and then when I came back and moved to Ireland made the sort of commitment of still having a season ticket and me and dad on a normal home match on a saturday i'll pick him up at seven we'll get to the airport at eight on the nine o'clock flight land at about 10 in the pub by quarter past 11 meet everybody beforehand have some lunch go to the game head back to the airport after the game have dinner get on a plane fly home in through the door at half 11 it's our normal match day routine on a saturday so some some will definitely look at that as crazy and yet when we go to the airport every saturday we'll see a an abundance of football shirts everywhere else with other crazy people doing the same thing for their clubs it's just like you're walking across with the ball game but it's just you gotta catch a flight catch a ferry yeah to and back from the mainland i don't know if you call it uh or not but for me okay you're talking about as a sports fan things like commitment uh community um building relationships people from all walks of life So how much of it, you know, being a sportsman transpires into what you do at your work at the marketing autopilots? You know, because most of these things are what you talk about on stage, you know, basically. So what did you bring in as a QPR fan into your work that you're doing right now in your agency? I think expanding out from just being a QPR fan, I've been a qualified football referee for about 20 years, qualified when I was 14. So a little bit more than that, actually. and when I originally started doing it was for a little bit of cash while I was growing up and you know my brother was playing football I got to under 18s at a um club in the sort of sixth level of English football so never really progressed too far but my refereeing has seen me do it and what I sort of realized from from that is I have a good understanding of human behavior and probably a better understanding of human behavior than an average person and also the confidence of standing in front of 22 people that are ultimately going to hate you for anything that you do or the best case scenario they forget your existence like being a football referee is not a good place to be for the majority of the time it gave me a lot of confidence and what i understood through that is the way that you get better at it isn't by having a better understanding of the rules and a better understanding of the technicality shall we say it's the communication i when i was on a pitch i was talking to players and i was talking to different players differently the really dominant aggressive people i was challenging them with dominance and aggression and they respected that and then i was on the same level and the quieter angry ones i was having a word to one side and like there were things that i was doing without thinking about it this wasn't a conscious thing but i did understand very quickly that the better you can communicate the easier everything else becomes because we as human beings crave that communication and that community side of it so like a lot of that has been has bled into what i do in terms of it's just a conversation and we're just two people and again following qpr like you noticed that um when we went to the game it's not like american sports you've got your home fans and you've got your away fans and during the game we will shout at each other but before the game we're all in the pub together having conversations yep talking to each other even after chicken tikka and naan and and those amazing chutneys oh it was lovely and like you know you're talking to people even walking back after the game talking to other fans the second i um we split and i was walking back to my car west brom fans walking past and literally saying i think that's probably an even result for the two of us and just having a conversation because we have a shared interest if albeit not a shared team so i think a lot of this is that sometimes in marketing in general i notice a lot of in particular a lot of marketers will stop referring to people as people everything is how many leads do you get it's a numbers game all of these cliches you hear and i understand why they're saying it i don't necessarily disagree with them but i just want to hone it back in and go the people that you're calling leads and the numbers you're talking about are actual human beings that just have lives and if you try and message them once they may well be busy if you try and call me between three and five o'clock on a saturday there is not a chance in hell i'm ever picking up the phone because i'm watching football but a lot of people then try and call me and go oh he's not interested he hasn't picked up the phone and it's like actually you just need a better way to start a conversation with somebody and and you know i know you'll be the same as me the amount of cold dms we get across all of these platforms going i love what you're doing at insert company name here it's like no you don't i just start i do you know how much i would respect if somebody cold dm'd me and said chris i'm not gonna lie this is a cold dm but i genuinely think i can help you feel free to tell me to bugger off if you don't want any unsolicited advice that's completely fine here is how i help people if that might help let me know and then we can have an honest open conversation i'd reply to that message every day every day of the week yeah and i just feel like we've lost the art of being able to have a conversation with each other because we're too busy trying to automate things and by the way i do automation that's what i'm there for is it's but yeah i just think what i love about being on stage and what i love about trying to build bring to a community is remembering that you're just one conversation away from a huge monumental shift in your life and we talked about this when we're together i don't like the sentence being in the right place at the right time i actually mentioned it earlier on in this recording i don't like that sentence because on its own it implies that everything is all luck and actually if you put yourself in more right places things like going to level up being in the Philippines and in that place be prepared for taking the next step so when that right time comes along you're prepared and you don't bottle it and you're not like and then run in the opposite direction put yourself in more right places and be ready for when the right time comes that's ultimately what's going to get you success and that's how I'm now working with HighLevel they had a stand at a conference I knew they were going to be there I didn't know all of the higher ups were going to be there which is your luck element right place but i knew the stand was going to be there and i made it my goal of going up to the stand and asking the questions i asked and then in that moment when they said how can you help i had answers prepared i knew what the next step would be and i knew how to ask the right questions to to put myself in there i had the confidence and belief in myself again from years of refereeing you get very thick skin very fast All of that came to play and I know how to have conversations. And that one conversation in Newcastle at a conference, it wasn't even a HighLevel conference, has seen me fly around the world according to my app 1 times around the world so far this year That awesome So I think what you saying being a referee what we do in our general lives that that what you got to bring it a normal conversation and we always talk about b2b b2c but you know it's the old thing it's p2b it's person to person um so i actually had this question uh for you right so you you're yours from the referee perspective actually you know you're saying like that gave you confidence because of communication you just went out and then you talked about the building the relationships so this is i think coming from your book because i did a little bit of research right uh no one gives a shit about your business so i know that's like and then you also call about building relationships having communication having these conversations uh learning from people while being within the people and your thing is automations, right? So that's what you say. So it is kind of a balance. I always tell it is kind of a hybrid, right? These things are supposed to make us more empowered, but that you got to have more of like a follow-up and then kind of a second with a human or a personal touch. So my question was, you know, so how do you build, you know, you're saying building relationships. So how do you keep it going just, you know, and as automations, having everybody's relationships very, very personal, but only delivering certain features? You don't want to be doing everything on the planet. So how do you do that? You know, having this balance between automations limited and being able to have a conversation and being able to help. But everybody has a different journey going on when they come to you. So the biggest thing, the sentence that I think sums up a lot of what you've just said is automation shouldn't replace a human. It should support them. We are we're very attuned as people to detecting, even at a subconscious level, automations that are designed to make it easier just for the business, not exclusively for the person going through it. And I had it earlier on, by the way. um i want to i've got internet and i've got my phone bill and my phone offers the internet in it significantly cheaper than i have my uh internet separately at the moment so i wanted a call and i wanted to do that and i had to go through 18 different bits and i got through to the end of the process and it said this office is closed now at 20 past three in the afternoon like and i'm really infuriated because that's not a good process but it's a great process for them being able to filter and make it easier for them it's not easier for me so i get frustrated at that and we all do so for me it's it's a combination of a few things number one it's being really open and transparent about the fact that they're going through automation and by the way none of us complain about automation when it's purely in our favor rory sutherland talks about this a lot that the biggest single improvement to customer satisfaction on the london underground network the metro system in london wasn't air-conditioned trains or wi-fi or bigger trains or more space it wasn't any of that it was the dot matrix boards on the platforms that tell you when the train is coming because we'd rather sit there knowing how long the train's going to come than sitting there in anxiety going where the hell's the train you'd rather wait 10 minutes for a train knowing it's coming in 10 minutes than five minutes without knowing so and that's by the way that's an automation that has absolutely nothing to do with the london underground getting more money out of you it's purely there for customer satisfaction and we love that nobody's ever complained about that so when it comes to certain bits of automation if it's purely done in the favor of the person going through it brilliant and it's it is nuanced has to be framed in such a way but i also think that like my business i'm the one that delivers the trainings and when people work with me directly they're working with me so there is an almost subconscious understanding that i'm not at the beck and call of every single lead that comes in it's impossible in fact i closed the client when i was i've been out of the office all day today my parent and parents-in-law parent-in-laws i don't know which which one you've you pluralized there but um been out with them and the kids all day today and i closed the client while i was out who's messaged me before and he's asked me a few questions and he messaged me this morning saying chris i've asked you a few questions and i want to know a way to work with you because i don't want to take the mic and i was like look i've got this package it's ready for it's in beta at the moment it's coming out of beta ready for dallas so i have a package that is going to be launched in time for me being over there on stage and it's designed at HighLevel users and HighLevel agencies which which he falls into the category and i just he said he was so respectful to me and it was like i've got questions and i want to How do I get access to you is the exact question. And I said, look, I've got this package. It's in beta. It's this, this, this, this, this. And he was like, that sounds like a bargain. Send me over the link. And I said, look, I'm out and about at the moment, but send me this word on WhatsApp. I've got an automation set up. It'll send you back the link and then use this code as the beta code. It will go through. So he signed himself up and booked himself into an onboarding. That kind of automation makes it easier for him. But in turn, the easier I've made it for somebody to buy from me, the easier it is for me. So there's an understanding there where there's a bit of a trade-off where there are certain automations that you can do. But if he messaged me in and I had automation take over the conversation, could he have maybe got the sale? Possibly. But there was then transparency between us, communications, what we were saying beforehand, where it was like, look, I'll be honest, this is perfect for you. Here are the details. If you want to come on board, brilliant. There is no rush in terms of coming on board. It's in beta at the moment, or it's going to be this price. When it launches, it's going to be this price. I don't care whether you come on board or not. And I don't mean that in a crass way. I genuinely don't. And I don't care if you come on board at this price or this price when it comes out. Here are the options. What do you want to do? And I was talking to a client recently about being detached from the outcome of the financial gain of working with people, which is tough. It's taken years to get good at that. But it's a bit like being a waiter in a restaurant. The waiter that works in a restaurant will come over to your table one will serve you and he has to give good service and he'll talk to you in the better service the likelihood is they'll get a better tip at the end of it but the service isn't there for the tip you just have to be good at service and the waiter will hand them a menu and say look here are all the choices they don't then come over and go here are all the choices don't buy the cheap stuff get the steak it's not how the conversation goes now they might have a conversation where the person says look here is what i'm looking for and here is what i like what would you recommend and you go for that couple of options here everything on the menu is good whatever you want to have but those two they're probably what i would recommend that's good service but the waiter isn't attached to the outcome of what food they order they're not sitting there going i hope they get the really expensive wine that's not how it and that's how you should approach for me most sales conversations so there is an element of communication that is automated videos that get sent out when inquiries first come in to keep people nurtured and and get that tonality across you know i've spoken a lot about how important your voice is in this process so much more important than text could ever be um and i will fight anybody that tells me otherwise but equally how how am i guiding somebody through a process to say look you have a problem i may or may not be able to solve it i told a prospect earlier i don't think that i can help you and he was grateful for it so like if i can take you if you've got this problem i can solve it my job is just to make it easy for you to get from one to another by having an honest conversation to work out whether i can help whether i want to help because that's important we've all taken on clients that we wish we hadn't further down the line and what the expectations are going into it that combination is how i then put it into automation so the videos aren't trying to replace that the videos are letting you know what that's going to look like when we come to that yeah basically putting out options i think uh there's no such thing as too much communication and then i also like this right i think i might use this london underground information one uh as far as you know just it just gives them clarity so i'm just sitting there for five minutes uh not knowing is harder than sitting 15 you know it's 15 minutes but knowing okay it's coming i'll do okay let me just walk around let me go get you know peanuts from the stand or something i know it's 15 minutes away i i do this i do this exercise on stage in certain talks and and the exercise the full exercise is you've got two choices there's a trade in five minutes or a train in 10 minutes which one do you take and everybody says five minutes so brilliant right more context you've got a train in five minutes but there's no display board you don't know if you're on the right platform there's no staff there's no signal the trains are on strike yesterday they might be on strike today you don't know if you're going in the right direction there are no signs telling you anything or 10 minutes where all of that is in place which would you choose everybody swaps their answer yeah and listen i know there are some people where in that made- up hypothetical scenario they have a time constraint and they have to do it five minutes so they are going to choose this i understand that but the majority of people would rather sit in a state of relaxation than a state of anxiety even if it's slightly longer so whilst speed to lead is important and I talk about this all the time. The faster you can get back to leads, the better. And I think automation is the only way you can do that well, frankly. It's also important what the quality of that experience is. And it's interesting, Alex Hormozi, we all know him in the marketing world. He sort of exploded onto the scene in the last few years. And he recounts a business, a roofing business in the States where they have a lead-to-close sale, So lead through to sale conversion rate of about 60%, which is massive for leads through to sale. And he said he puts it down to the fact that he pays a woman$60,000 a year and her whole job is to call every lead within 60 seconds. Now, this person might be out doing the shopping, might be out here, but if a lead comes in, she's got 60 seconds to call them. And I've always talked about that. And I believe that story, by the way, I don't believe that that is incorrect. I believe everything that he said there. but I've always assumed and I've said that doesn't take two things into account one a high volume of leads which means there is a good chance that when one lead comes in another lead comes in you're on the phone already and two that leads don't come in at any time between like 10 11 p.m at night through to like five six o'clock in the morning because you're not calling those ones right and I actually heard him talk about this and he let slip a sentence when he was retelling it he said you know she she may she on average she'll deal with three people a day and i was like i knew it like it's a it's a great example and for some businesses with that smaller volume that only come in during working hours 100 that would work but i think automation needs to play a place in there i think personally it needs to be a video on whatsapp because you can then hear tonality give them options set expectations build trust all the lovely stuff that i talk about on stage but you can't do that if leads are coming in outside of normal hours that would be acceptable to call them and if you've got a decent chunk of leads i get about 10 leads in a day if i get a lead in now i can't call them in 60 seconds and could i have somebody do it potentially but they'll watch a video from me and they'll go through some options and at the end of it i can send them a voice note because i've told them an expectation that i'm going to call them in 24 hours and I'd message them half an hour later, I'd blow away my own expectations that I've set. I also read again on your book, actually I liked this. This is what you've been talking about, that sales is not about selling anymore, but about building trust and educating. That is so awesome. It's just kind of about discovery, letting them know whatever you have, this is what I have. not just selling them the steak but yeah maybe you know if you're up here for just for an appetizer or you know a crab dip is really good or something like that that's just kind of um and at the end you know it is just about what you can deliver it's not about you know how you deliver it what's happening um once you're there you just need to be basically delivering i actually and so what what else is about you know this these were a couple of notes from your book, what else would you want to just tell us about, you know, what your book is about? It has a very interesting title, I think I already talked about it, No One Gives a Shit About Your Business. The reason that I wrote the book is I see so many business owners in particular and I talk about business owners in particular here that because they live and breathe their business they know their business more than anybody else they know the answers to questions that people might have automatically they they live and breathe it and they know the outcome that they can give when people work with them that's across business sectors from a mechanic they know if you come in here i'll fix the car brilliant you get back out to a coach if you come train let me deliver these nuggets i can transform your business and everything in between right the problem is when they then put processes and systems into place it's very often influenced by how they would go through the process but actually the person going through it doesn't trust you enough yet to believe that you can get those results might not even know what the results are at the end of it they don't care about you enough to go out of their way if the process isn't as fluid and easy as it could be. And the reason I wrote the book is I want people to realize that if you know that nobody cares about your business, the experience that you put in place for somebody who doesn't care about you, where you're answering questions they may have, you're making it easy for them to go from one step to another. You're understanding that they don't know the end goal, but they know they have a problem and you just need to guide them through. The easier you make it, the more people will get to the end because the people that do care about your business will fly through that experience and the example that i give a lot when i talk to people is um in the uk most hospitals in the uk there is a private sector but most public hospitals run by the nhs you can pretty much turn up to any of them walk in the front door and follow the signs to the department that you need to get to and the reason for that because hospitals are the most accessible buildings normally full stop the signage is in big letters because people have visual impairments need to be able to see them the doors are usually automatic because they need to get beds and wheelchairs through them on a regular basis there's very rarely steps or at least there is always a step- free way of getting everywhere really really clear explainers everywhere and the reason for it isn't because hospitals feel nicer than anybody else because all of that stuff costs money it's because if you were at a hospital you generally don't have a choice you were there nobody goes for a fun saturday night out accident and emergency which doesn't happen you might have a fun night out that ends up an accident and emergency but you're not going there by choice so if you turning up and you're trying to find your way to radiology because your friend is in having an x-ray previously they would have ask the staff where is radiology and the staff would have just got fed up of answering that question so many times that they would have put pressure to put signs on the wall so they don't have to answer that bloody question all the time where are the toilets follow the signs it's over there i've asked answered where are the toilets 15 times in the last hour that's what would have happened i guarantee you but with our business they might have those questions and they might need to find out if they can go this way or that way or this way or that way but because they don't have to be there, like they have to be in a hospital, when they butt up against something like that, they just turn around and leave. And these are your leads that don't turn up. They're your prospects that have questions that just don't keep on answering. They're the ones that don't pick up the phone when you try and call them. They haven't had a good experience and you haven't made it easy to get from one step to another. So the whole purpose of the book is that if you can put an experience in place that even somebody who doesn't give a shit about your business would go through everybody's experience is better and if everybody's experience is better your business grows and there are 15 chapters chapter 12 of the book is called open the floodgates it is about how once you have a good experience in place and there are 11 chapters before this deliberately but once you have a good experience in place getting the leads isn't hard Just put budget behind a Facebook ad. Go out networking. You know, you've seen the back of my phone, how easy in every single scenario I am trying to get people's details. Like, it is easy to get leads. It's not easy to get sales. And that's where I think people make the distinction is you could go and spend the next week and book every single networking meeting in your area and meet dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of people that are in your prospective world. Getting the leads isn't hard. turning them into sales is but the difference between one and the other is the experience that you're giving somebody in the meantime actually once you were saying turning them into sales is hard i actually first thought you were saying and turning them into silence meaning they're not replying to you and that is also hard because it means they had really bad experience they stopped answering you because you know most of the times i know you know uh i try not to anymore right if you're giving a google review it's like when you didn't have a good experience and you only give a good review when someone really made it really easy for you and put it right in front of you made it you know as you said it's kind of an automation but it should be going you know did you enjoy press one to five and it goes to the google review something like that it's i see it all the time i moan a lot right i'm generally a very happy person i have a lot of gratitude in my life you have qpr fan it's yeah i've got a lot of things to moan about generally speaking the the best example of this is so i talk a lot about um understanding human behavior it's going back to the things that i think i genuinely do have a good understanding of what people do and i talk about airport toilets you and me travel a lot right so we're in airports a lot we know the process we know all of this right and in a lot of airport toilets around the world they'll have a board that says how was your experience in the toilet today and i've seen ones right where somebody's come up with this great idea to try and get feedback from people and birmingham airport once on the way out there was a little tablet where you've got to answer five questions who on earth is going to the toilet in an airport and then stopping on the way out to answer five questions on an ipad nobody's doing that right and i've also seen it where you put the how was your experience thing today further away from the entrance than the toilets were so again who is going to the toilet coming out washing their hands then going the other way to go and answer that question and yet i've seen it i've got a picture on here i won't try and find it and waste the time on the podcast but i've seen one where they put a little really simple probably about that big with five options really angry face moderately angry face okay face quite happy very happy face they're all the buttons about that big on the wall right beside where you wash your hands genius exactly the same bit of feedback that you're asking everybody to give but that person is standing there drying their hands looking for about 10 seconds at nothingness that button is the easiest thing in the world for them to press and it's just an understanding of that there are so many times where people are trying to design processes and systems to put people through that aren't behaviorally natural and i talk about it in the in the greater world right desire paths we may have spoken about this before but for for those that are listening desire paths are you see them in nature where there might be a grassy area and people have taken a shortcut over that grass and enough people have taken a shortcut that it's eroded its own path yeah they're called desire paths and if you get the opportunity the best example of this i've ever seen is ohio state university if you go on google maps and type in ohio state university right next to the big football stadium that they have there they've got a huge area like the american quads you know the way that you have a university where you've got loads of buildings around a big grassy area in the middle and they realize that the Students will just walk across the grass to get to the lectures. Nobody's going around it, right? And they could have done what most businesses do, and they could have put paths where they want you to walk. But they realised that even if they put those paths there, they're going to walk over the grass because people are people. So what they did one year is they waited for the snow to fall, didn't put any paths out, waited for the snow to fall, and then mapped where the students made their own paths in the snow. And then when it thawed and all the snow cleared, they pathed where the paths were that the students had created and when you zoom in on this on google maps the thing looks insane there's about three dozen paths going off in different directions but they've made it look fantastic none of the grass gets touched because even though some people might need to go slightly like that and slightly they will do that because it's not worth them going on the grass for that like to cut the corner at that extent so you can steer people but it's the best example I've ever seen of how somebody understood let's actually look at what the behavior is here and then adapt and GaryVee who's also talking in Dallas I'm very excited about that I've been following GaryVee for a year for years one of the things that he doesn't necessarily talk about a lot but I've heard him talk about before and I'm gonna mention it to him if I get the chance in the green room he talks about when he worked in his father's wine shop he used to sit there and just watch the behavior and he watched the way that people walked in and that most people walked in and veered off to the right down that aisle they just he watched that behavior and he realized that people come to the end so when they were at the end of it they would always spend a little bit of time looking so that's where he put i think it was and forgive me if i'm wrong here but he put something like the top five wines of the week right where he knew the attention was going to be because he'd analyzed the behavior and that was one of the most profitable things that he did because everybody who he knew was going to be paying attention to this he then had top five wines the week which was really attractive for people to go and grab one off the shelf and impulse put it into their car and i i remember hearing that and i remember not really thinking too much of it at the time but going you know did surely people pay attention to how people go through their own processes and then laughing my head off later on when I realize that they just don't. So, look, WhatsApp is the thing that people know me for, but the reason it's WhatsApp is because I know that outside of the US, WhatsApp is where people's attention is. The average WhatsApp user spends 61 minutes per day on the app, which when you consider that the app is just a messaging platform, it's a hell of a lot of time on the app. So I realized the attention was there. And how do you steer people one way or the other? where you don't go, thanks for filling this in. Here's the link to go and book it. It's you get them watching videos and engaging and interacting. And the more they interact, each one is a slight step further towards what your next step is. And the more attention they can give you, the more they trust you, or the more they dislike you, which, by the way, is also a good outcome. If somebody watches me and they don't want to work with me because I swear a little bit and because I'm a football fan and all of this, brilliant. There's no point in me wasting my time on you trying to get – It's not my job to persuade you to work with me. It's my job to find out if you have a problem, find out if I can help and present you options for you to potentially come on. I don't need to coerce people with some people selling sales tactics like get them to say yes five times and they'll say yes a sixth. It's like, yeah, but then you've got to deal with them being really pissed off two months later because you coerce them into it. There are plenty of people out there that have a problem that you can solve. And, you know, we look at high levels as a platform. what what connects you and me in general i think people trying to sell HighLevel are silly you don't sell HighLevel you sell the outcome of what they can do with HighLevel and for your niche that might be for me it's less ghosting and less no-shows because if you can have more people turning up more people responding to you with through those conversations you generate more sales you make more money i've seen people that are selling HighLevel as just the review side of because people go, I get more reviews, there's more authority in the area, I get more sales. They're not selling the review platform. They're selling the outcome of you having more reviews. The missed callback is a really big one. I've seen a lot of people in the industry, they just sell this one feature, and that is just a missed callback. Everybody tries to sell every feature, and ultimately, HighLevel has so many features. It's a really powerful platform. But if you try and sell all of it, that's not what people want. People want the solution to the problem. They want the life that they want. And this is where you said perfectly, it's not a B2B or a B2C sale, it's a person to person sale. And ultimately, you're speaking to somebody who, if they work with you, will their life be better? And if you can fundamentally say yes you would be doing them a disservice if you weren following them up in the best way possible yeah yeah it means you got to believe in your product it means every time you on a sales call you know you're not trying to say the five times sales a trick you're just telling the person that what you have for them and this is what i can do and your conviction in it it just comes out otherwise your sales become hard yeah then then you're gonna you know put in all those tricks that you're talking about the other thing before you know we move to the HighLevel one is i liked your theory on analyzing behavior right that is that is sales and ohio state i think the pathway you know don't try to stare people the way they're not trying to which is unnatural for them right go where the people are again p2p example coming in so i really like that uh the way you explained it so last one you know of course this is as as we saw it is for HighLevel what is the plan this time on HighLevel what are you going to be talking about if you're going to give us a little bit of insights and what are we going to be looking forward to so the i'll give you an insight to my plan for the whole week as well as just my plan for the talk so the talk is titled whatsapp versus sms how to harness whatsapp to make more sales and it is it's going to be a deeper analysis on how to use the platform in a way that your voice comes out and the engagement which sms just can't can't functionally do as well but also understanding i'm speaking to an american audience who are going to be who are going to have people that aren't on whatsapp so a lot of the things i talk about in terms of video sends and stuff like that is going to be applicable outside of just the whatsapp platform what my plan for the week is so when i went to level up last year i was like a hearing headlights and I remember saying to my wife and saying to the people that I have around me that I don't know what to expect going over there I'm just going to go over and see what it's like and basically put my arms out lay back and just let everything absorb everything and this time around I'm going with a bit of a reputation a lot of people have done my course spoken obviously in India and the Philippines. So it generated a bit of authority and people sort of knowing who I am. Following also, I think. A little bit, yeah. If you look at my metrics on Facebook over the last 90 days, you can see the day that I spoke in Manila. Literally, there's a spike of about 1,000 new followers in 24 hours. So I'm going over there, but I'm also going over there with people that I know and people I've become friends with. You know, you're going there. there's about there's seven speakers coming from the uk and we're actually doing something in the build up to level up uh all seven of the speakers which is being announced i believe later on today um which is exciting but there's there's got to be probably about 60 or 70 people coming from the uk with as just general ticket holders coming over so i'm coming over and what what my intention is while i'm over there is to basically try and help as many people as possible and for some of those people it might be taking a further step and wanting to work with me afterwards but for the majority of people it might be that they work with loads of people that are in the latin american area and whatsapp is in latin america basically the way they communicate so how do they harness that for their potential target audience one two three bits of advice brilliant um guiding them to free resources things like that that they can help and i think for me i'm going this time with a bit of a mission on my success out of this is how many people i can help with help in general full stop and i know with that being my mission i will get sales and i will get clients and i think this is i see this all the time in networking i don't know if you see it a lot but i will get people coming over to me and before we've had a conversation handed me their business card and i'm like i'm gonna throw that in the bin there is there are business cards in my bin right now yeah right from networking that i've done this week and it's like i get it we're all going networking And let's not pretend that we're not in sales conversations here. You know, all of this, apologies for slightly swearing, but all of this bollocks around, oh, it's a free consultation. Come to me. I won't sell you anything. Or come to my training. I won't sell you anything. And then you do sell. It's like, well, what's an immediate way to blow trust out of the water? Of course you want to sell. When I say to people, look, let's have a conversation about us doing some business together. We might not be able to do some business together. If we can, fantastic. and i was in a i'm in a facebook group over here of some really successful entrepreneurs we're all part of the same kind of community and somebody commented in there's about 3 000 people or something in that group and somebody put a post does anybody know anybody that specializes in just whatsapp automation bonus if they know the go HighLevel platform of course i commented and i put a picture of me talking in india uh on there and then i got tagged in like six or seven different comments we've got a sales call booked um but my voice notes back and forth to him were look from what you've told me i think i can help i've got a client that's exactly the same business as you in a different region here is what we've done with them and he came back he said that's exactly what i need so look here is how it works and we'll book a call just to let you know so you're going into it eyes wide open some clients will invest up to 25 30 000 pound with me to build everything for them other clients get started a few hundred quid for me to do one-off trainings with them and that's what the range is going to be so i'm not trying to hide anything we're going into this conversation going look here are the options find out loads of things that you can let me ask as many questions as i can and then if one of them suits absolutely brilliant if they don't also brilliant like you have to have that in your locker you have to have that ability to turn around and say look i might not be the person that helps you i might be let's have a conversation and find out and it all goes back to what we said right at the start of this how many conversations can you have that's that's what it is it's every conversation but you gotta go and just be yourself right you cannot be just uh like targeting so this week i do a lot of events as you know in the way you move around we try to have this circuit um and then we went to this one you know event and at that point we were ready as we are the three brothers all of us went there we were ready to buy the program before we went there and we're like oh while we're doing it such a big expense we were doing a coaching program you know so we're like let's just go to the event also but once we went in the event they these guys would just come and start selling you know they were not even we're like yeah hi so we were used to we have a coach josh nelson we're used to HighLevel community where you see HighLevel communities still right there it's a lot of people centric a lot of uh aged relationships like the same people in the room coming back again and again but here these guys will just center us or you know corner and if you go to the bar or having food they'll look at us and just start i'm not one more sales pitch right three days of torture so we're like let's put the credit card back in the pocket and let's get the hell uh out of here thank god we came here and spent just a little bit money to check it out so we did not commit our next two years uh getting stuck on being you know that's something that you don't do you just try to see one conversation and then kind of uh like a very old thing you know let them grow uh if they never came back then it means you know you were never going to help them it was not a right match either either way it has to be that way it's it it's mad honestly i see it so often where like there's a sales trainer i work with i always recommend him guy called matt alwar based not far away from where we met uh in east birmingham i mean solid hole if i said he probably slaughtered me to be fair um sort of in and around that area and he talks he's a very good sales trainer and it varies a bunch about ethically training not trying to trap people into questions not trying to convince somebody to work with you like a lot of what he taught me bleeds into what i teach other people and we have a we have a fantastic relationship but he's a dear friend of mine and he talks about where he went into an audi dealership and wanted to buy a new car and he's done very well for himself so he had a certain few sort of lists of things that he wanted and he said something about one of the cars and the guy basically insinuated that like they're the more expensive cars like you might not be able to sort out finance on them and everything like that come and have a look at this car because the salesman just judged him as he went in i was like the guy's walking in and your process has made that absolutely horrible and there are so many people that get in their own way where they just they try and just have a conversation with someone have a really open conversation with somebody and and be honest with them like it's not your job to try and persuade somebody to work with you it's your job to go right what are the problems and listen there are techniques where you can ask certain questions you know all of my questions start with matt's teachings which are five w's and one h who what where when which and who and how sorry every question i ask people generally starts with one of those six words six letters and for me it's because i want to find out whether they have a problem or not i want to find out how urgent that problem is to sort i want to find out whether i can actually deliver it and whether they trust me to do that and i'm asking questions so that they can basically work it out themselves where it's down to them look i've put everything here i've made it as easy for you as possible what do you want the next step to be and it isn't trying to go oh would it be a bad idea if we didn't do this oh yeah i've seen those techniques all the time where it's just like ask a question where they can't possibly say yeah say no to so i just say no if you send me a dm going would it be worth a chat no you've asked me a question that i can then turn around if you try you're trying to trap me into an impossible no so i'll just say no now it's out of stubbornness like it i probably should just ignore the message yeah but like every now and then i'm just not in a great mood and i bite and i'm like if this is how you're trying to sell to me by trying to persuade and convince and almost hoodwink me as I go through the process, then how on earth can I possibly trust that the bit after the sale is going to be good? And subconsciously, by the way, we all pick up on that. Like we can pick up if we're talking to somebody who's desperate for the money at the other end. Might not know that we're picking it up, but it will raise a little tiny subconscious flag that just goes, hold on a minute, hold on a second and if somebody has that flag in their head trying to get them to buy from you is impossible so like every part of it is just transparency communication conversations and making it as easy as possible transparency i think is a big big part uh of uh you know building trust that's what you talk about i think in your sales philosophy building trust um in you know as far as the clients are concerned but again uh thanks a lot i think we're on time we actually over time it was a really awesome conversation uh chris my friend again uh thanks for taking the time coming on the podcast and then we'll uh see you speak on the stage in HighLevel on october 26th to 29th uh in dallas uh this year and then you know you of course as uh chris just mentioned he's out there trying to get conversations if you go see uh you know chris in the crowd don't be a stranger come go say hi to him it's you know all about philosophy as well as said people to people communication um building relationships and everything else is kind of a byproduct that follows anything else you want to share say before we close off uh chris the the last thing that i'll say is you would there's a quote that i live by which is you'll care less about what people think about you when you realize how seldom they actually think about you and that quote is is designed from a perspective of don't care about what anybody else thinks and then believe in yourself but i will also say that the flip side of it is true right you might think people are aware of you and not reaching out to you, they haven't thought about you. So in that moment, if you see me around Dallas, if we're connected on Facebook and you think that I might be able to help, send me a message. All we can have is a conversation and the outcome of that conversation might be a no. The outcome of that conversation might be the best conversation we've ever had. Oh, man. Thanks a lot, Chris. Famous last words. But again, we'll see each other in Dallas, October 26th. Yes.